I have been fortunate to have joined this church in 2004 and began leading the men's Sunday School class in 2005. I have experience teaching Bible Studies for over 15 years, having worked as a layperson with the Navigators in the 1980s and 90s. I was blessed to have attended Southern Baptist Theological Seminary for 2 full years.
This can be a tough question, and hard to answer in ways that do not offend. Please be open minded in expressesing your views and in the consideration of others....remember, the Bible is our guide to all teaching!
Before we get to this lesson, I would encourage everone to check out this website on the complementarian view.
http://www.cbmw.org/questions/
Complementarians essentially believe that men and women are equal in essence/value/being, but are different in the roles that God created them for.
Questions to consider: -What is the role of a man in the family? -What is the role of a woman in the family? -Are they distinctive roles set apart within the church body for men and women? -What about Gender-Neutral versions of the Bible (TNIV)?
Also, below is a link to a 864 page book (free to download) on the subject; pages 84-101 are an attempt to answer the third questions (which I think is the hardest and most controversial).
http://www.efbt100.com/evangelical_feminism.pdf
John Piper, John MacArthur, R.C. Sproul, Wayne Grudem, Mary Kassian, and other distinguished scholars have written many great articles and books on the subject.
Often when people look at the role of men and women in the family, we often look at Genesis. That may not be the best resource because most of the instructions come post-fall. It can be suggested that some of the differences are the result of original sin. Therefore as Christians we should seek to neutralize the results of sin, and not be so segmented in our treatment of the genders. Yet, much of Paul's instructions also suggest a difference in roles. How do we interpret his instructions, specifically wives submitting to husbands, without demeaning women. This is one of those areas where I would love to hear the women chime in.
Genesis 2:18 & 2:20 are prefall references to the need for a "helper"...main point?
"It is not good for man to be alone" v.18
Definition of "helper"
5828 עֵזֶר [`ezer /ay·zer/] n m. From 5826; TWOT 1598a; GK 6469; 21 occurrences; AV translates as “help” 19 times, and “help meet” twice. 1 help, succour. 1a help, succour. 1b one who helps.
Strong, James: The Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible
HELPMEET — KJV word for helper, companion, or mate, used by God to describe Eve before she was created as Adam’s spouse (Gen. 2:18; helper comparable to him, NKJV; helper suitable for him, NIV).
Nelson's New Illustrated Bible Dictionary. Nashville : T. Nelson, 1995
Woman are not "servants", but equal companions, designed to compliment and complete man in their God-assigned mission. The whole purpose of woman's creation? Man was incomplete....
I think by post fall instructions I am referring to Genesis 3:16 To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you shall bring forth children; Yet your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you." So is the husband ruling over his wife, not a result of the fall? But your point is well made. The idea of the man having a helper is pre-fall.
This verse has always given me trouble, especially "desire shall be for your husband" being referred to as a punishment. What I recently learned is that the Hebrew word "for" is also translated against and later used in again in chapter 4. The punishment against Eve is that conflict is being introduced in the marriage relationship. His rule over woman is how God intended it from the beginning; this is just showing that despite the conflict being introduce (power struggle) the God-designed roles will not change.
"His rule over women is how God intended it to be from from the beginning" Are you sure you are comfortable with that interpretation? I do agree that women and men have different roles. But the idea of "men ruling over women" does not seem to work for me. Maybe I need a better interpretation of "rule" That word just seems pretty strong.
Remember what I said in the beginning "men and women are equal in value/essence/being, but different in the roles that God created them for." What we are talking about here is role, not worth.
We need to be careful not to associate the concept of headship, ruling, authority, etc. as being a negative term. Because of the frequent human abuses of such a role we tend to think of the term "rule" as something that is abusive, prideful, and self-focused. The role of ruling is a God-ordained role that is designed to give glory to Him as we honor the responsibilities of that position. Do not trust my interpretation.....see below for two references to the Hebrew translation of the word in Genesis 3:16.
5440 II. מָשַׁל (mā∙šǎl): v.; ≡ Str 4910; TWOT 1259—LN 37.48-37.95 (qal) rule, govern, control, be in charge, i.e., have a person or entity exercise authority over persons or governments (2Sa 23:3), note: for qal act. ptcp. as a noun, see 5443.6; (hif) make one a ruler, have dominion (Job 25:2; Ps 8:7[EB 6]; Da 11:39+), note: for another parsing in Isa 28:14, see 5443.6
Swanson, James: Dictionary of Biblical Languages With Semantic Domains
4910 מָשַׁל [mashal /maw·shal/] v. A primitive root; TWOT 1259; GK 5440; 81 occurrences; AV translates as “rule” 38 times, “ruler” 19 times, “reign” eight times, “dominion” seven times, “governor” four times, “ruled over” twice, “power” twice, and “indeed” once. 1 to rule, have dominion, reign. 1a (Qal) to rule, have dominion. 1b (Hiphil). 1b1 to cause to rule. 1b2 to exercise dominion.
Strong, James: The Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible
Just because someone has a position of authority over another does not mean they are better or of more worth. It means that they have different God-given responsibilities. If the term "leadership" is more comfortable of a word to use, that is fine too....as long as we understand the role defined by the Hebrew.
Again, let me suggest the below resource that answers some of these questions much better!
Remember what I said in the beginning "men and women are equal in value/essence/being, but different in the roles that God created them for." What we are talking about here is role, not worth.
We need to be careful not to associate the concept of headship, ruling, authority, etc. as being a negative term. Because of the frequent human abuses of such a role we tend to think of the term "rule" as something that is abusive, prideful, and self-focused. The role of ruling is a God-ordained role that is designed to give glory to Him as we honor the responsibilities of that position. Do not trust my interpretation.....see below for two references to the Hebrew translation of the word in Genesis 3:16.
5440 II. מָשַׁל (mā∙šǎl): v.; ≡ Str 4910; TWOT 1259—LN 37.48-37.95 (qal) rule, govern, control, be in charge, i.e., have a person or entity exercise authority over persons or governments (2Sa 23:3), note: for qal act. ptcp. as a noun, see 5443.6; (hif) make one a ruler, have dominion (Job 25:2; Ps 8:7[EB 6]; Da 11:39+), note: for another parsing in Isa 28:14, see 5443.6
Swanson, James: Dictionary of Biblical Languages With Semantic Domains
4910 מָשַׁל [mashal /maw·shal/] v. A primitive root; TWOT 1259; GK 5440; 81 occurrences; AV translates as “rule” 38 times, “ruler” 19 times, “reign” eight times, “dominion” seven times, “governor” four times, “ruled over” twice, “power” twice, and “indeed” once. 1 to rule, have dominion, reign. 1a (Qal) to rule, have dominion. 1b (Hiphil). 1b1 to cause to rule. 1b2 to exercise dominion.
Strong, James: The Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible
Just because someone has a position of authority over another does not mean they are better or of more worth. It means that they have different God-given responsibilities. If the term "leadership" is more comfortable of a word to use, that is fine too....as long as we understand the role defined by the Hebrew.
Again, let me suggest the below resource that answers some of these questions much better!
I am glad you allowed me to use the word "leadership" because I can connect that to Jesus example. He was a leader, but primarily a "servant leader" who led by example. In fact he warned the apostles to not get caught up in title or position or prestige. He also humbled himself by washing the apostles feet, and told them to treat each other in the same way that he treated them. So in our marriages we need to follow His example and be servant leaders, not rulers who are caught up in power, position, or prestige.
Wives and Husbands 22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. 25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing[b] her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."[c] 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
jonathan, do not misunderstand me on this, but I am not sure what you are getting at. I hope you know that I have read, studied and memorized that passage many times. I also know that some folks distort this passage and take it to mean some of the wrong things. So merely quoting a passage does not help me to understand what you are getting at. You could either be trying to emphasize the part of "submit" or "love your wives" To me, the instructions that begins, "wives" is a personal address to wives and really belongs to them to interpret and apply, though I am somewhat interested in being prepared to answer anyone who asks what that means. The part that is addressed, "husbands" is clearly addressed to us and suggests a sacrificial kind of love. So if my goals, dreams or interest have to be sacrificed for my wife, than I need to be prepard to do that, because Jesus is the example of the supreme sacrifice, who we are to follow.
Jim, great points! I put the verse only, because it sums up most of what we've been talking about.
I like how the verse address husbands and wives seperately, because our focus needs to be on "How do I better fulfill my God-ordained role in marriage" and not on telling our spouse what they need to fix. I think in all marriage relationships there needs to be a concious focus on our own problems and faults instead of trying to focus on those of our spouse.
As for the husbands role to rule/lead in the marriage relationship it does need to be focused on Christ's example in how He loved the church. Epehesians 5:22-23 spells that out clearly for us.
14 comments:
This can be a tough question, and hard to answer in ways that do not offend. Please be open minded in expressesing your views and in the consideration of others....remember, the Bible is our guide to all teaching!
Before we get to this lesson, I would encourage everone to check out this website on the complementarian view.
http://www.cbmw.org/questions/
Complementarians essentially believe that men and women are equal in essence/value/being, but are different in the roles that God created them for.
Questions to consider:
-What is the role of a man in the family?
-What is the role of a woman in the family?
-Are they distinctive roles set apart within the church body for men and women?
-What about Gender-Neutral versions of the Bible (TNIV)?
Also, below is a link to a 864 page book (free to download) on the subject; pages 84-101 are an attempt to answer the third questions (which I think is the hardest and most controversial).
http://www.efbt100.com/evangelical_feminism.pdf
John Piper, John MacArthur, R.C. Sproul, Wayne Grudem, Mary Kassian, and other distinguished scholars have written many great articles and books on the subject.
Often when people look at the role of men and women in the family, we often look at Genesis. That may not be the best resource because most of the instructions come post-fall. It can be suggested that some of the differences are the result of original sin. Therefore as Christians we should seek to neutralize the results of sin, and not be so segmented in our treatment of the genders. Yet, much of Paul's instructions also suggest a difference in roles. How do we interpret his instructions, specifically wives submitting to husbands, without demeaning women. This is one of those areas where I would love to hear the women chime in.
Genesis 2:18 & 2:20 are prefall references to the need for a "helper"...main point?
"It is not good for man to be alone" v.18
Definition of "helper"
5828 עֵזֶר [`ezer /ay·zer/] n m. From 5826; TWOT 1598a; GK 6469; 21 occurrences; AV translates as “help” 19 times, and “help meet” twice. 1 help, succour. 1a help, succour. 1b one who helps.
Strong, James: The Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible
HELPMEET — KJV word for helper, companion, or mate, used by God to describe Eve before she was created as Adam’s spouse (Gen. 2:18; helper comparable to him, NKJV; helper suitable for him, NIV).
Nelson's New Illustrated Bible Dictionary. Nashville : T. Nelson, 1995
Woman are not "servants", but equal companions, designed to compliment and complete man in their God-assigned mission. The whole purpose of woman's creation? Man was incomplete....
I think by post fall instructions I am referring to Genesis 3:16 To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you shall bring forth children; Yet your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you." So is the husband ruling over his wife, not a result of the fall? But your point is well made. The idea of the man having a helper is pre-fall.
This verse has always given me trouble, especially "desire shall be for your husband" being referred to as a punishment. What I recently learned is that the Hebrew word "for" is also translated against and later used in again in chapter 4. The punishment against Eve is that conflict is being introduced in the marriage relationship. His rule over woman is how God intended it from the beginning; this is just showing that despite the conflict being introduce (power struggle) the God-designed roles will not change.
"His rule over women is how God intended it to be from from the beginning" Are you sure you are comfortable with that interpretation? I do agree that women and men have different roles. But the idea of "men ruling over women" does not seem to work for me. Maybe I need a better interpretation of "rule" That word just seems pretty strong.
Remember what I said in the beginning "men and women are equal in value/essence/being, but different in the roles that God created them for." What we are talking about here is role, not worth.
We need to be careful not to associate the concept of headship, ruling, authority, etc. as being a negative term. Because of the frequent human abuses of such a role we tend to think of the term "rule" as something that is abusive, prideful, and self-focused. The role of ruling is a God-ordained role that is designed to give glory to Him as we honor the responsibilities of that position. Do not trust my interpretation.....see below for two references to the Hebrew translation of the word in Genesis 3:16.
5440 II. מָשַׁל (mā∙šǎl): v.; ≡ Str 4910; TWOT 1259—LN 37.48-37.95 (qal) rule, govern, control, be in charge, i.e., have a person or entity exercise authority over persons or governments (2Sa 23:3), note: for qal act. ptcp. as a noun, see 5443.6; (hif) make one a ruler, have dominion (Job 25:2; Ps 8:7[EB 6]; Da 11:39+), note: for another parsing in Isa 28:14, see 5443.6
Swanson, James: Dictionary of Biblical Languages With Semantic Domains
4910 מָשַׁל [mashal /maw·shal/] v. A primitive root; TWOT 1259; GK 5440; 81 occurrences; AV translates as “rule” 38 times, “ruler” 19 times, “reign” eight times, “dominion” seven times, “governor” four times, “ruled over” twice, “power” twice, and “indeed” once. 1 to rule, have dominion, reign. 1a (Qal) to rule, have dominion. 1b (Hiphil). 1b1 to cause to rule. 1b2 to exercise dominion.
Strong, James: The Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible
Just because someone has a position of authority over another does not mean they are better or of more worth. It means that they have different God-given responsibilities. If the term "leadership" is more comfortable of a word to use, that is fine too....as long as we understand the role defined by the Hebrew.
Again, let me suggest the below resource that answers some of these questions much better!
http://www.cbmw.org/questions/
Remember what I said in the beginning "men and women are equal in value/essence/being, but different in the roles that God created them for." What we are talking about here is role, not worth.
We need to be careful not to associate the concept of headship, ruling, authority, etc. as being a negative term. Because of the frequent human abuses of such a role we tend to think of the term "rule" as something that is abusive, prideful, and self-focused. The role of ruling is a God-ordained role that is designed to give glory to Him as we honor the responsibilities of that position. Do not trust my interpretation.....see below for two references to the Hebrew translation of the word in Genesis 3:16.
5440 II. מָשַׁל (mā∙šǎl): v.; ≡ Str 4910; TWOT 1259—LN 37.48-37.95 (qal) rule, govern, control, be in charge, i.e., have a person or entity exercise authority over persons or governments (2Sa 23:3), note: for qal act. ptcp. as a noun, see 5443.6; (hif) make one a ruler, have dominion (Job 25:2; Ps 8:7[EB 6]; Da 11:39+), note: for another parsing in Isa 28:14, see 5443.6
Swanson, James: Dictionary of Biblical Languages With Semantic Domains
4910 מָשַׁל [mashal /maw·shal/] v. A primitive root; TWOT 1259; GK 5440; 81 occurrences; AV translates as “rule” 38 times, “ruler” 19 times, “reign” eight times, “dominion” seven times, “governor” four times, “ruled over” twice, “power” twice, and “indeed” once. 1 to rule, have dominion, reign. 1a (Qal) to rule, have dominion. 1b (Hiphil). 1b1 to cause to rule. 1b2 to exercise dominion.
Strong, James: The Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible
Just because someone has a position of authority over another does not mean they are better or of more worth. It means that they have different God-given responsibilities. If the term "leadership" is more comfortable of a word to use, that is fine too....as long as we understand the role defined by the Hebrew.
Again, let me suggest the below resource that answers some of these questions much better!
http://www.cbmw.org/questions/
I am glad you allowed me to use the word "leadership" because I can connect that to Jesus example. He was a leader, but primarily a "servant leader" who led by example. In fact he warned the apostles to not get caught up in title or position or prestige. He also humbled himself by washing the apostles feet, and told them to treat each other in the same way that he treated them. So in our marriages we need to follow His example and be servant leaders, not rulers who are caught up in power, position, or prestige.
Ephesians 5:22-33
Wives and Husbands
22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing[b] her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."[c] 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
jonathan, do not misunderstand me on this, but I am not sure what you are getting at. I hope you know that I have read, studied and memorized that passage many times. I also know that some folks distort this passage and take it to mean some of the wrong things. So merely quoting a passage does not help me to understand what you are getting at. You could either be trying to emphasize the part of "submit" or "love your wives" To me, the instructions that begins, "wives" is a personal address to wives and really belongs to them to interpret and apply, though I am somewhat interested in being prepared to answer anyone who asks what that means. The part that is addressed, "husbands" is clearly addressed to us and suggests a sacrificial kind of love. So if my goals, dreams or interest have to be sacrificed for my wife, than I need to be prepard to do that, because Jesus is the example of the supreme sacrifice, who we are to follow.
Jim, great points! I put the verse only, because it sums up most of what we've been talking about.
I like how the verse address husbands and wives seperately, because our focus needs to be on "How do I better fulfill my God-ordained role in marriage" and not on telling our spouse what they need to fix. I think in all marriage relationships there needs to be a concious focus on our own problems and faults instead of trying to focus on those of our spouse.
As for the husbands role to rule/lead in the marriage relationship it does need to be focused on Christ's example in how He loved the church. Epehesians 5:22-23 spells that out clearly for us.
Is Britney your ghost writer on that last one??? ;-)
nope...but a good suggestion :)
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